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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Tuning Help needed Reply with quote

Do we have anyone who can clean up a tune I have to accommodate with the right parameters for an m20 325i, which using an ignition system with coil on plugs. It has an e36 ECU piggy backed to Moates Ostrich 2.0 with the tune. I have the right xdf and bin. Modifications on the m20 are E36 TPS, CPS and Distributor delete.

Let me know.
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aboutton



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 168
Location: Lebanon

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can you give more explanation ?

what exactly are you doing ?
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aboutton wrote:
can you give more explanation ?

what exactly are you doing ?


I am currently running m20 using an M50 NV ignition system and wiring harness with coil on plugs. I am using an e36 ECU piggy backed to Moates Ostrich 2.0 with the tune am using. But it is running very rich with a very erratic idle. Let me know if you want more details.
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Evil



Joined: 18 Jul 2017
Posts: 74
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have an ostrich you can trace the tables and adjust fueling and spark with Tunerpro.
Are you using m50 sensors? Specially the cam position sensor?
What idle valve are you using?
Do you use the maf from the m50? If not, you're running in alpha n mode and thé tables are surely not adapted for your engine si you will have To tune It
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aboutton



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 168
Location: Lebanon

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about the camshaft position sensor ?
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, am running m50 sesnsors, cam position sensor, MAF, TPS, and idle control valve, but using the m20 throttle body housing sesnsors (Blue and brown Temp Sensors). The vehicle runs and drives but very rich and poor idle.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evil wrote:
If you have an ostrich you can trace the tables and adjust fueling and spark with Tunerpro.
Are you using m50 sensors? Specially the cam position sensor?
What idle valve are you using?
Do you use the maf from the m50? If not, you're running in alpha n mode and thé tables are surely not adapted for your engine si you will have To tune It


Yes, I have ostrich and tunerpro " trace the tables and adjust fueling and spark"
That is what I don't know how to do.
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Evil



Joined: 18 Jul 2017
Posts: 74
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure about position of TPS and CPS? A bad positionning of one of them can cause many problems.

To trace the tables and adjust fueling and advance, you need to use tunerpro RT (Real Time), so you can see where you are in maps and adjust values, e.g if you are at a given load/rpm, thé point on the table is shown, and if your AFR reading is too lean you add some fuel
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have tunerpro RT, I am sure the TPS and the CPS are good. I have tested them on an M50 and they are fine.
Looking at the stock bin and xdf on tunerpro, there are a lot of tables and scalars. But the tune I am using has been scaled down to a few tables and so it can be used with an m50 xdf, that's the way I was given by a person who had a setup like the one I am using, hope that makes sense.
Would you be able to input the right stock m20 values into the tune I have?
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like you are in a very similar position to me except I have gone one leap further and used the M50 vanos unit to get a few of the more advanced features.

I have not heard of anyone who has a known good M20 bin for either of the M50 ECUs, I am sure there are a few who could put a car on the dyno for a few hours and have something that runs reasonably but as you have found there is a lot of tunable stuff in these ECUs.

Your CPS is absolutely fine in the stock position as the M50NV and M20 share a front cam trigger angle, the M50TU ECU needs the missing tooth moving on the trigger wheel.

Cam trigger is easy on either ECU and the same as you would use for a standalone setup.

It is a conversion that has been done a few times but I have not seen anyone confirm the results or ever get it tuned properly. Mostly as it is easier to go standalone.
Thread on the swap here:
http://e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63504

I know exactly what you mean about the current tune if you are using an M50B25 map.
Ignition is retarded in a lot of locations and fuel is serious rich.
What are you using for AFR detection?

Few key things I have found so far:
- VSS is important, if you are not getting a good speed sensor input the ECU gets grumpy and goes rich.
- I think MY TPS is cranky, how did you mount yours? I have mine bolted using a cut off M20 TPS to allow angle adjustment. I know I need to make it more rigid.
- Don't make too many changes on the ostrich without releasing the emulator and restarting, the ECU or ostrich can get confused, I got stuck in a lay-by at 11pm thanks to that one.
- Do you have the M50 air temp sensor and black coolant temp sensor? The M20 ones won't work.
-Pretty sure the IVC needs the open and close windings reversing, while the ICV is the same (have used both M50 and M20 ones) the ECU needs them flipping over. This might be specific to my conversion though, I did some odd things to make it a reversible change. Rolling Eyes

You can't just port over the M20 maps from the 173 ECU, they are formatted very differently and even rescaling/adjusting them to suit did not result in very good results.

I am a little reluctant to share the bin I have so far as it is a VERY long way from being correct, however we might be able to compare notes a bit.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not using any wide band at the moment, just stock.

For the TPS I am using an adapter that was being sold on the e30 forum that can attach the m50 TPS, but you will need to rotate the throttle body shaft 180, and switch the throttle body wire plugs pins 1 and 2. to orient it the same as the M20 TPS.
http://e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1309966#post1309966

The bin I have, like I had said before, has been scaled to correspond a e36 xdf and it has fewer tables than a regular 173 ecu.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is injector constant for m20 stock injectors (17lbs), and how do you calculate it?
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, understand on the TPS adaptor.
I might swap my throttle shaft around too, would make it easier to plug the TPS in instead of it facing the engine block.
Is the TPS bracket you have adjustable in any way? It is quite important that the voltage from the TPS is around 0.3-0.4v closed or the ECU does not seem to trigger the idle condition properly.
The E36 can do this with cheap aftermarket TPS sensors but I am not sure the mounting holes on the E30 throttle are as precise as the E36 ones, might be worth checking you are getting the correct voltages from the TPS.

Do you have an ADS scanner that can read the ECU? You will be able to check that it it triggering idle and WOT correctly with that.

You will need to get some kind of wideband set up, no way to get the fuelling correct without one.

M20 injectors are 152cc/min@3 bar and ~178cc/min@3.5bar
M50 injectors are 166cc/min
Trouble is I cannot confirm solidly if the M50 had a 3bar or 3.5bar regulator which is half the trouble, some say 3.5 but 3 bar regulators are available for the M50. Question

You absolutely need to change the injector voltage correction, it was the single biggest improvement to my setup.
The M50 and M20 injectors have a different voltage response/lag curve.

You say you are using a modified bin that has been scaled? Do you know what has been done to it?
Could you post a copy of the BIN and XDF?
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Evil



Joined: 18 Jul 2017
Posts: 74
Location: France

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

-3 bar regulators are on m50b20
-3.5 bars regulators are on m50b25
😉
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the conclusion I had reached as well.
M50 injector is ~190cc/min at 3.5 bar from what I can see.

My injector voltage correction is:
Volts - 7.8 - 9.8 - 11.7 - 13.7 - 15.7
M20 - 2.55- 2.14- 1.55 - 0.98 - 0.52
M50 - 2.10- 1.80- 0.72 - 0.56 - 0.36

Big difference in the response curves and massive difference to how the engine ran once I had the correct M20 injector values in there. (Shows how bad just throwing M50 injectors into a stock M20 like some people do is really!)

You either need to be able to change that on your ECU or stick some M50 injectors in.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, for an M20 Engine with M50 management, which injectors are best to use, m20 17lbs or m50 19lbs?
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Won't matter provided the ECU is set up right for the injectors. Both the M20 and M50 injectors are capable of fuelling the engine correctly.

There is the argument that the M50 injectors are 4 hole and give better atomisation of the fuel, there is also the counter argument that the spray pattern is incorrect for the port shape of the M20 and the fuel collects on the port walls.
6 of one and half dozen of the other? Rolling Eyes

Use what ever you have got but make sure the ECU is set up right for correct injector latency and fuelling.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you set up the ECU to the correct injector latency and fueling.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, on Tunerpro RT what is the injector constant of each, m20 17lbs and m50 19lbs? Does this look right for any of these injectors?

https://goo.gl/photos/32RLxTnnHvKvGv2RA

Does this MAF table looking right too for the m20?

https://goo.gl/photos/eKRVUGfQAj6gqscq8


Last edited by gath on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't open either of your pictures, the link just 404s
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hairyscreech wrote:
I can't open either of your pictures, the link just 404s

Try if they are opening now.
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Working now,

You should not need to touch the MAF table as long as it is correct for the MAF you are using.
You need to be using the early M50 MAF with your ECU, the later ones are slightly different.

If you adjust that injector constant then you need to adjust the load axis of all the other maps as well, the constant is used in the calculation of the load so adjusting it on its own will offset the ECUs load calculation and move things up the maps (towards higher load).
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't adjusted the Injector constant values, and I will look at exactly which M50 MAF I am using.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hairyscreech wrote:
That's the conclusion I had reached as well.
M50 injector is ~190cc/min at 3.5 bar from what I can see.

My injector voltage correction is:
Volts - 7.8 - 9.8 - 11.7 - 13.7 - 15.7
M20 - 2.55- 2.14- 1.55 - 0.98 - 0.52
M50 - 2.10- 1.80- 0.72 - 0.56 - 0.36

Big difference in the response curves and massive difference to how the engine ran once I had the correct M20 injector values in there. (Shows how bad just throwing M50 injectors into a stock M20 like some people do is really!)

You either need to be able to change that on your ECU or stick some M50 injectors in.


How does this look? The injectors are m50 19lbs.

https://i.imgur.com/4Ek3w9a.png
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody has some insight??
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Evil



Joined: 18 Jul 2017
Posts: 74
Location: France

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not the good table, this one is a PW correction from IAT and another value that I dont know the descriptor. I dis the same mistake by thinking it was latency correction but could not obtain any good effect.
The injector latency correction table is 5x1 and is only voltage dependant.
What dme are you using?
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am using a 405 ecu.
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Evil



Joined: 18 Jul 2017
Posts: 74
Location: France

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normally it's the same adress for 405 and 403 : 6F71.
Anyway, if you are using m50 injectors you dont need To touch this table.
What has been rescaled exactly in your bin?
If you are using everything from the m50 (sensors, maf, injectors...), your fueling should be not so bad even on a m20, load calculation is mostly based on maf measurement, so maybe your bin has been "scaled" for m20 injectors? If so, it should be the reason why you are running rich.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm! I'll try to put m20 injectors and see how it will behave. I'll update what I find Smile
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aboutton



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 168
Location: Lebanon

PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't think anyone can help with what you are doing without having the car in front of him and ostrich connected.

it has to be done in live tuning.
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Tony Ouneissy
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, after some work tonight I can probably actually help with this.

First off, do you have your ostrich and a wideband yet? if not proceed no further as I cannot be 100% sure the results will be the same on the 405 as the 413.

If you use the M20 injectors you absolutely have to adjust the injector latency table. It is 5x1 and contains exactly the data I posted but in raw data, change the time in MS to the raw data by dividing the time by 0.01.
You could just go looking for 5x1 tables in the code.
You need to understand the table headers to do this but if you don't understand them then you need to learn that, without knowing and understanding the table format then you will always be a bit lost in these ECUs.

You will need to adjust the injector constant and scale the tables to suit the M20 injectors or the car runs lean up top no matter what you do.
With them adjusted I found the fueling was great up top but rich at idle and low throttle.

Next thing with M20 injectors is they seem to be a little slow for the ECU. The ECU calculates the theoretical injector pulse width using the MAF and the injector constant, provided these are both right then the values in the fuel tables would be 128, for no correction to the calculated value.
However the stock maps seem to move the fueling up a little to the 130-140 range.
The M20 seems to need the fueling massively reduced at low loads, I have my low load fueling pulled down to ~95 to get to high 14s:1 when cruising or idling.
My suspicion is that the M20 injectors are an old design and do not react too well at low pulse widths. Higher up they are just fine though provided the latency is correct, the injector constant is set right and the scaling is right for the injector constant.

I am now idling at about 14.5:1, cruising at 14.6-15.2:1 and mid 12s at full throttle. Fine tuning can be started from there.

Ignition timing wise, the M20 is pretty tolerant due to a fast burn chamber for a 2v, the M50B25 timing map will run it just fine until you get to the fine tuning point.

If you need more help than this you are going to have to post your XDF and BIN so we can take a proper look. We are guessing without those two things.
Upload them to mega or file dropper and post a link.

- Edit - There is also one massive thing, do you have access to an ADS or INPA system to talk to the ECU for fault code reading and sensor checking? Again without access to this you are going to have a really bad time.
Sensor problems and errors stored in the ECU can cause hell with the tuning, you need everything working right before you will get anywhere.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. Here are the links posted to Mega. Let me know if they work.

https://mega.nz/#!NDh1HSoR!PqwFpI_Kle_YeTRBPCSITSmhQLM-XCDMEnW-i1RHHsk
https://mega.nz/#!RHJQWAIS!agxteE15dynth-JG4B0biXbMEj9Mfa61-VgM5ZsF0Po
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gath wrote:
Thanks. Here are the links posted to Mega. Let me know if they work.

https://mega.nz/#!NDh1HSoR!PqwFpI_Kle_YeTRBPCSITSmhQLM-XCDMEnW-i1RHHsk
https://mega.nz/#!RHJQWAIS!agxteE15dynth-JG4B0biXbMEj9Mfa61-VgM5ZsF0Po


OK, looking at these they are set up for the M50 injectors I cannot see any adjustments for the M20 injectors going on.

Are you 100% sure this file was tuned for the M20? It does not look, to me, like anything has been done to it at all Vs the available E34 405 stock bin.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your feedback. I honestly don't know what to say because I was told it was tuned for an M20, with a setup like mine, m20 2.5 running on M50 management system. What would you do to help for it to be M20 compliant?
I really appreciate.
Thanks.
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you need to ask the person that gave you that file, from what I can see it is set up the same as a stock 405 E34 tune but is only 32kb.
Comparing the two in a hex editor shows them as the same until near the end of the file when the 64kb 405 file begins to differ for obvious reasons.
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gath



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the response, I'll contact and see what else can be done.
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