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M3.3.1 413

 
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:45 am    Post subject: M3.3.1 413 Reply with quote

Hi guys,

We are building an E30 with an m50b25 turbo for track use.

The car is really too rich to run properly.

the origjnal ecu used an 609 chip and have work before with an 623 improved cheap for NA bought on ebay. Now we add the turbo we don't know if the ecu can work on the 609 and 623 chip or if it need the 609 absolutely.

are these 2 revision using the same maps adresse location ?

i will go step by step if you accept to help me guys
Very Happy

is the 609 revision need a specific xdf file ?
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should both work just fine on the 413 as there are practically no changes to the hardware even between the 6 and 8 cylinder M3.3.1 Ecus. (we have seen a 6 cylinder ECU try to pulse the 2 missing Inj/Ign drivers if loaded with an 8 cylinder BIN).

The best way to be sure is to check out the BINs yourself using the info in the big development thread on here or post both of them up and see if someone has the time to take a look and verify they are the same.

Do you have the ability to read both the chips?
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, i have open the 623 and the 609 (with the 413 xdf provided on the other big thread) both have been read from the Eprom directly, but nothing is similar. that is really strange, because the car was running good with the 2 chips on the same ecu.

I don't know what to think about that.
If there is nothing similar between the 2 files, the ecu should not work right ?
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok i have spent some time on the car yesterday and the ecu is reacting well to the 623 chip.

The block engine is stock, original piston, head gasket. We just change the rods bearings.

We have started by a pressure of 0.35 bars and the car is running good.

Just some mistakes :
_ the idle target seems not working in the XDF, i have to adjust the idle with the IAC map.
_ AFR at the idle is good at the begening, but after a little time it start to become poor.
_ after 6000 rpm, the engine become very lean
_ on the 10 first percentage of the throttle, the AFR is lean (16). Is it coming from the "accl enrich" or the PT map ?

i have to adjust now the ignition.
I have to say i'm not really comfortable with that, it's my first mapping on a turbo conversion.
So i have started by remove 4 degree after 4000 rpm, and 3 degree between 2000 and 4000. I don't have any idea what is this engine able to handle. Probably safe enough for starting but far from ideal.

next week we will increase the turbo pressure to 0.5bars.
What is the max safe pressure for this set-up ?
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Hairyscreech



Joined: 20 Jun 2017
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idle target will work if the IAC table is within the correct range for the engine, the M50 maps will be too much air flow for the M20 at idle, the IAC table only alters the IAC valve but the idle speed tables adjust ignition timing to alter idle as well.
The ignition is varied at idle around the set point in the map as a fast way to correct speed fluctuation and the IAC is varied to control the idle if the small tweeks of the ignition cannot do it, it is a slower response and was part of the reason I had issues with the idle bouncing on mine, the idle ignition was vastly different to the PT map so caused a bounce between the two.

What do you mean by your idle fuel becoming poor?

After 6000RPM? What is your rev limit set to and how lean are we talking? Could be a number of things.

For the last point it all depends what you are doing in that first 10% throttle.
If the throttle is steady then you are in the PT map, keep the throttle steady for about 10 seconds to be sure you are in the PT map.
If you are just cracking the throttle open and seeing a lean pulse then you are looking at the acceleration tables a s the culprit.

I would not go turning the boost up until you are comfortable with all the settings and have no lean areas, a friend may have just killed £2500+ of M20 bits by going too hard too soon. These motors can make really strong power but if the tune is off can also be molten/cracked scrap very fast.
If your boosting an M20 beware of head temperatures, get a sensor to monitor the metal temperatures around cylinders 4 and 5.

Going back to the chip numbers, you have one chip from a pre 93 US M3 and one chip from a post 93 M3, one has EWS and one does not so the code will be offset as shown in the different XDFs and the Excel sheet showing the bins.
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Hairyscreech,

First of all, thanks for the help and time you take to reply me.

I see i have to be more precise.

The car is an E30 but engine come frome an E34 from 1992.
We are in Europe, so all maps are european version.
The engine swapped from the E34 is the M50b25 (195 Flywheel HP), with for sure the ecu (413) coming from this car. There is no M20 anymore in this car.

When the M50 was an NA engine, the idle was also bouncing, but i think it probably come from the IAC rubber pipe, where the connector was broken with the time. Now it's solved, we glued it.
The idle is now really stable, when we release the pedal, the AFR is around 14 but fall to 15 and more after 5 or 6 secondes.
Maybe the ecu is switching from the PT map to the idle fuel map, this should mean that i have to raise the idle fuel map a little.

I have now the right idle rpm target, so making the idle a little more rich should be ok. I can heard some "pops" sound in the exhaust when idiling.
that's a kind of cool stuff Smile

Under 6000 the AFR is around 12 but after 6000 this is falling to 16 in one shot. Sometimes the engine "cut" the power. this is really strange that is falling so suddently.
The rev limiter is set-up to 7400 rpm. That was like this on the ebay file we used as a base to start this project.
When the car was NA, i never remember the engine cutting after 6000.
I saw a thread here were a guy explain that he get the same problem, and solve it by adding a speed signal to the ecu. so i don't really know what to think. I didn't check any AFR before the turbo conversion.

The maps also show us that the VANOS is switching back at 6000 rpm.
I have no idea what this could do on the AFR.

For the 10% throttle, ok i will do the test that you suggest.
The turbo start to boost around 2500 rpm.
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, 10% throttle solved.
Idle AFR solved.

Turbo pressure is now 0.5bars.
The engine is now "cutting" at 5500 rpm at WOT.
If we use 75% of the Throttle, engine can go 7000 rpm without problem.
I try to modify the igniton WOT map to rescale it to have a larger load available, but there is no difference.

Today i will check the fuel pressure at WOT if stay stable or not.
The pump is a 255L/h walbroo, this look enough, but the size of the pipes from the tank still are the originals ones.

Do you know how the 413 ecu, switch from PT to WOT map ?
Is there a map to manage this ? or it an algorythm defined by load and rpm?
I wonder if this is not managed by the "LAMBDA OFF" maps ?
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olafu



Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Posts: 89
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

623 bin:

There is throttle position tables for idle/pt/wot transition. I have no idea where is rpm axis data for those tables... But rpm's are about 1800, 2000, 2400, ???? for idle-pt and 2000, 2400, 3200, ???? for pt-wot.

idle-pt 4x1 table, 0xD53C
pt-wot 4x1 table, 0xD540

What MAF you are using? MAF signal fault modes: Max air flow is RPM dependent, and there is multiplier for that. Did you get MAF DTC:s when engine cuts? If MAF fails (or ecu thinks so) load signal comes from limp mode table (tps/rpm "ve" table) in 0xDBB2.

And, did you have vehicle speed signal for ECU? If speed signal is missing, fuel is reduced about 30%, when RPM goes above set threshold (6000rpm stock, located at 0xD27E).

0xD27B is RPM threshold (2520rpm at stock) to activate speed signal check, so, overwrite it with "FF" (10200rpm) and ecu will never check it... Restricted mode and DTC 42 is gone.
Better solution is proper speed signal, because we don't know if there is something "stationary run mode" or like that. At least idle control has different values, when car is moving or not. DTC 42 has also a load threshold, but i can't remember where it is. But it is in same lump with those RPM limits. 0xD27D is time threshold, low value = DTC 42 appears sooner and vice versa. 0xD27A is minimum valid speed.

We did jump wire from cam signal to pin 42, so ecu thinks car is always moving, if engine runs. Works fine, but idle speed is higher.
I never got enough time to find where is "idle speed when car is moving" -table... Confused

There is several idle tables for different conditions. You can find them by tracing (if it is "cold/dead" in tracing, it should not be changed). They are in a row in a bin, so, if you know one, other one is close.

609 and 623 has very similar tune, but at least cold start tables are slightly different. Data is also stored in other place, offset is about 4100. Program part is different, but i don't exactly know how.
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Olafu,

Thanks for these very interesting informations.

We have changed the TPS sensor, and get even better result.
Now it's not lean anymore.
The engine is now really too much rich (aroung AFR9 to 10) after 5500 rpm but not cutting.

I saw your previous message about the v signal.
I have still not check if the speed signal is working in the ecu.
I didn't made the wiring myself, so no idea what have been done.

About the WOT fuel tables, seems is not a "injection time" directly but more a compensation number ? Is the ecu taking the value from the PT table to add the value from the WOT table for the full throttle ? or are the PT and WOT tables totally independant from each others.
I have decrease the WOT table value, and finally got even richer AFR.


Last edited by Triangulé on Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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olafu



Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Posts: 89
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOT tables, as also PT and idle tables, are not actual injection time. It's correction factor. 128 is "basic" value.
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I just tested to change the WOT map and still same (AFR 10).
Seems it's not changing anything.

We think the engine is cutting at 5500 because it's too rich.
When we increase the turbo pressure, it still too rich but the engine is not "cuting" anymore, and can go upper.

On the PT map, the load is from 1.0 to 8.2.
I know 8.2 is not enough for full throttle, but as the ecu is switching to WOT map, do i really have to change the PT map ?
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so we have made another test tuning the WOT at a very low value.
The AFR still reaching 9.

So i have tested value from 75 to 160 (middle point at 128) and all of them give me too much fuel.
As soon as we push the trottle from 50 to 100% open, the AFR increase from 12 to 9 instanously.

So this seems showing that the ecu is realling switching to the WOT map.
The car run very well on the PT map from 0 to 75% throttle.

So i need your help to put some hypothesis on the table :
_ need to switch off the lambda probe for tuning the WOT ?
_ the MAF is at the max value ? what could happen ?
_ the PT map is saturated, over, not enough value for hi load ?
_ another map for full throttle is not tuned properly because of the new injector size ?
_ V signal missing ? Should make the AFR leaner right ?
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

Still working ! and have an idea !

The original E34 engine was Automatic gear box but now converted to manual.

There is some specific maps for the A/T.
How the ecu can know is have to work on automatic or manual maps ?

I'm surprised there is no Advanced or Retarded VANOS maps for the A/T.

As all the modification i've done on the normal WOT table are not working, the ecu maybe still think he is an A/T, and probably not switch to the right map if the speed signal is also wrong.

The ecu have probably to switch differently from map to other if he know with speed from the AT is engaged.

The guy who probably swap the engine in, decided to connect the switch of the gear box lever to get it always in neutral and then allow the car to start.
I'm not sure if there is a specific management or maps for neutral.
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olafu



Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Posts: 89
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have A/T car with manual gearbox. Works fine, all A/T stuff is removed, but wiring harness still has A/T controller connector.

How did you actually re-scale your injectors? What values you are changed from ROM? All load dependent tables must be rescale.

missing v-signal makes your engine run about 30% leaner when revs are above 6000 and fuel comes back when revs comes under 6000rpm. It NEEDS v-signal or disable v-signal check.
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when the engine was NA, this was also perfectly working.
We went to the dyno and get the full power, without any problem.

I will check the v signal with the scope today.

I'm interested to know how the ecu software is programmed to recognize if it is a manual or A/T. This is maybe different software or wiring or hardware change somewhere to switch an input.
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olafu



Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Posts: 89
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But how did you rescale the injector flow in ROM?
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've change it directly in the tunerpro table, not in the hex file ?
starting by the last number.
Is it working ? I mean is tuner pro change also the hex file like for data values ?

We have checked, there is no speed signal.
I need now to found the signal from the cluster to connect it to the ecu.
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olafu



Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Posts: 89
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was never changed injectors. But i can try to explain:

By changing injector scaling/constant, you are actually changing a load calculation factor. Raw max. load is 255 in decimal, and it's 12.75ms in "load" value, if we use x/20 conversion.

Now, if you change your injectors, say, for example big as twice of original. Injector constant is now set to 0.50. This will decrease your load value to half from original, in same conditions. Now we have more capacity in "load" value.

EVERY table, what is "load" dependent (D5 and D6 decriptors), are out of tune.

As example: Ignition tables. Max load is 8.2ms. If your K-value ("injector constant") is half from original, there is now 4.1ms load value, in same conditions, what produces 8.2ms load in stock "injector constant". ECU will now read ignition angles from 4.1ms column. (actually interpolated value from between 3.9 and 4.6ms colums)... Same conditions, so, there is now intermediate load's timing values in use, when engine is running at "full" load (if everything else is stock)

Also, if there is any correction, what is direct adder for injector pw, it must be changed. And different injectors propably needs different injector opening time table.

i think Evilm3666 or aboutton can help you in this.
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Triangulé



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi olafu,

First thing thanks for your time and reply that help to go ahead.

The ecu get this afternoon a speed signal from the cluster.
This is working now the ecu is not cutting anymore at 5500, and can go to the rev limiter without problem.
So you was right ! thanks for this big help.

The WOT still very rich and what you said about rescaling, show me that i havent do the right thing on the details.

So if i understand i have to know first what is the max load my engine is reaching (with an Ostrich i suppose or inpa could maybe gave me a value ? or estimate it) and then rebuild all the map with the new max load to use the best definition as possible. this will help to have a more stable AFR and more precise tuning ?

This mean now the ecu is not reading the value in the right colum.
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